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Marler Blog Providing Commentary on Food Poisoning Outbreaks & Litigation

Two Raw Milks – one for the Pasteurizer and one in the Raw

My friend, David Gumpert, over at the Complete Patient, took Food Safety News to task a bit the other day in his post – “The Food Safety Ideologues Have a New Spin on That Pesky WI Commercial Dairy Campy Outbreak; In Praise of Camel, Horse and Other Non-Cow’s Milk” over the reporters failure to note that the unnamed Racine County dairy raw milk Campylobacter jejuni outbreak that sickened 16 school kids and 2 adults was the other of the “two raw milks.”  The full article on Food Safety News was “Regular Dairy Provided Raw Milk to School.”

As publisher of Food Safety News (think of me as the un-Rupert Murdoch), I posted on David’s Blog:

David, I think it does make sense to talk about “two raw milks.” I tend to agree that in general, if you know the product is going to be heat treated, much less care is taken in the production – hamburger is a great example. I have asked the folks at Food Safety News and Real Raw Milk Facts to be sensitive about that going forward. I am glad that you liked Food Safety News sharing the results of the FOIA. I am most bothered by the failure of WI to disclose the name of the farm.

Over the last few years I have been keeping track of outbreaks and recalls linked to raw and pasteurized milk and cheeses over at Real Raw Milk Facts (of which I have been a financial supporter). We went through the list and more clearly defined the Type/size of dairy to try and differentiate between outbreaks and recalls linked to raw milk that had been intended for pasteurization and raw milk that was not. I hope this makes it clearer where the outbreaks are coming from. By my count, outbreaks or recalls due to raw milk intended to be consumed raw account for 23. There were 15 outbreak or recalls related to raw milk intended to be pasteurized, inadequately pasteurized or contaminated post-pasteurization. Hopefully, I got the numbers right. (Download January 1, 2010 – July 10, 2011 chart)

Screen shot 2011-07-19 at 10.41.58 AM.pngDavid’s point about the “two raw milks” seems to be that there should be a distinction between raw milk intended for pasteurization and raw milk indtended to be consumed raw when outbreaks or recalls happen so “real raw milk” is not tainted by the other of the two.  I think that makes sense and I hope this chart helps.

Also, in the desire to keep people informed on the status of raw milk regulation, Food Safety News recently posted “Ag Survey Compares States’ Raw Milk Regs.”  There may well be some updated information that can be found at Real Raw Milk Facts Regulations or in this Spreadsheet.

  • Doc Mudd

    Don’t be taken in. The suggestion of “two raw milks” is merely an extension of the same monotonous old spurious bashing of modern agriculture that invariably taints every foodie claim.
    Grade A milk produced for the commercial market in the US is remarkably consistent in quality and safety. Commerce in milk is so highly standardized it’s boring, contracts for various milk products are routinely traded on the futures market. It’s a commodity that’s familiar and well-established, a known quantity in about every respect.
    Raw milkies’ insistence that commercial milk is poisonous, etc., etc, blah, blah, blah is merely them breaking wind and poisoning the well in a slimey effort to differentiate their substantially equivalent product.
    Now, if they were sincere about creating a second raw milk, one that truly was reliably cleaner, safer, and embued with some unique standard for components, that would be a truly wonderful and marketable thing. But, that is the only way “two raw milks” will come to exist – they would have to create it and prove it out to everyone’s satisfaction, no smoke and mirrors, no negative campaigning.
    And, the prospect that raw milkies could ever accurately claim complete safety for their unpasteurized product is dim. They would have to let go of those preposterous claims in order to have a differentiated product that’s credible, truly marketable.
    They would also have to break the nasty habit of bad-mouthing ordinary milk and ordinary producers if they are ever to be taken seriously. That, in my opinion, will never, never happen – without controversy their personalities are such that they would quickly lose interest in the project.
    So, “dual system”, as it is currently asserted, is nothing more than a dual-axle overload of reeking organic fertlizer. Just more stinky raw milkie stuff to be flung against the wall in hopes it will stick.
    The breakthrough in all of this is that, for the first time, raw milkies acknowledge the stuff has food safety shortcomings. Not so long ago, they didn’t used to admit even that! Progress, I guess.

  • Doc Mudd

    Oops, not to be a pest, but I ought to document some irrefutable milk quality trends by herd size.
    http://www.nmconline.org/articles/scc2009.htm
    Important to note a declining average somatic cell count each year (steady progress in milk quality) and a trend to healthier cows in larger herds: “As herd size increased, average daily milk production generally increased and average SCC generally decreased. The percentage of test days with SCC more than 750,000 in herds with fewer than 50 cows was 5.0%. This compares to 1.4% for herds with 50 – 99 cows; 0.7% for herds with 100 – 149 cows; and only 0.3% in herds with 150 or more cows.”
    So all the blather, bluster and low-flying bullcrap about deplorable milk flowing exclusively from “CAFOs”, and “Big Ag”, etc., etc., ad nauseum turns out to be just so much flatulence and brown staining from raw milkies lying their greedy asses off in a desperate lurch to differentiate their grubby ‘small ag’ product. More than 750,000 somatic cells (pus cells) per milliliter ten times more often for the ‘little guys’ than the ‘big guys’! Yuck!!

  • Doc Mudd

    Back again…with some historical perspective this time. (I just knew I had heard this hokey horsehooey somewhere before)
    Here’s the precise moment, in original context, when the “two raw milks” brainfart was worked up and released in the church.
    http://www.marlerblog.com/legal-cases/e-coli-o157h7-tests-confirm-bravo-farms-dutch-style-gouda-cheese-linked-to-outbreak/
    So, it’s clearly a recent grudging capitulation by raw milkies and a defensive spontaneous fabrication – just the sort of incontinent excretion that is spun and incubated so effectively in the echo chamber over at ‘The Complete A – A – A## – er -Patient’…yeah, patient, that’s it; the complete patient.
    And this, children, is how spurious raw milkie bullcrap and gunsmoke are made! (Don’t try this at home, kids – these are professional propagandists, experienced in handling homemade stinkbombs!)

  • http://www.marlerclark.com/wmarler.htm Bill Marler

    I got this email from a friend:
    In the pasteurized world, there are two milk Grade A which can be sold as fluid milk. I am assuming that you are familiar with the pasteurized milk ordinance which is reviewed every year by the interstate milk shipper conference.
    I am attaching Wisconsin regulations, you will note that there are very specific regulation which most raw milk dairies, especially the cow share units couldn’t meet. The regulations are outlined in the model Pasteurized milk ordinance. While all other milk is grade b or commercial milk which has be processed into to some other product besides fluid milk
    http://classes.ansci.illinois.edu/ansc438/mastitis/milkquality.html
    Grade A Milk: Producers are issued a permit by their state to ship Grade A milk. To meet the standards of Grade A milk, the milk shipped should not exceed 40 F and should have a low bacterial count. Repeated violation of these standards can lead to revocation of the producer’s permit. Some other standards included in designation of Grade A milk include: prohibition of addition of water (see Freezing point of milk in the Milk Composition module), absence of antibiotics (see resource on Mastitis Treatment & Control), exclusion of milk from diseased animals and of colostrum, proper construction and maintenance of facilities, safe water supply, sanitary waste disposal, milking equipment properly constructed, cleaned and sanitized, and cooling milk within the prescribed period of time to a temperature that restricts microbial growth. Non-Grade A milk would either be considered as manufacturing grade or reject milk.
    The reason I am including this information is that if raw milk dairy would meet the grade A requirements, they would be safer than many of the cow share dairies that have been linked to so many outbreaks.
    Honestly, the most important factor at any dairy small or large is management. There are some great large dairies and small, there are some horrible large and small ones.

  • comeback

    Do you want to know why “Raw Milkies” are so passionate and willing to stand up for for thier beliefs? Read on:

    Living milk (RAW) heals, and promotes life and healing. It is teamming with natural PROBIOTICS (good bacteria which fight nasty bacteria) Diseased milk which must be PASTEURIZED is dead. It sickens, and promotes disease and physical degeneration. Pasteurized milk has no probiotic activity to protect and serve the body. The important key is that to be safe, raw milk must come from properly pasture raised, grassfed (NOT GRAIN as this makes cows sick- with sick milk!)cows who are carefully taken care of. Naturaly, this costs a fair amount of money to produce. Greed must be kept out of the equation. This is usually a small farm whose main goals are safety, cleanliness and care of animal and milk and happy customers willing to pay what these things are and really worth (more money to fairly compensate the farmer for his time and energy).

    Big, greedy agricorporation CAFOs and mega-dairys cheat and skip on through safety, cleanliness, true care and even use controversial (disease causing) growth hormones (rBGH) in relentless pursuit of more, ill-gotten, easier dollars. This is GREED plain and simple, it is cheating by compromising quality for dollars. The only “milk” this greedy system can produce is DISEASED, milk and it also creates the need to pasteurize (make DEAD) this foul, diseased fluid which is the natural result of of this GREED. Like produces like.

    Many of us will not stand for this kind of wrong any longer. We are willing to educate people about truth. We are willing to stand up to the institutions who actively try to hide this truth and put dollars before health. Many of us are willing to fight the ignorance, deciet and greed. If you care about health, truth, helping people, the animals and environment, please join us because YOU JUST CAN’T STOP US!

    Incedentally, there are many other industries (food, military, manufacturing, service, media, etc.) to which the above concepts apply equally to. Greed always dilutes quality, while the almighty dollar actively rationalizes any wrong.

  • Bill Anderson

    Good management is absolutely the foundation of safe raw milk. Good management follows from good education and training.
    As for the Doc’s continued insistance that “milk is milk”, and his shilling for the big dairy corporations, I shall let the science speak for itself:
    http://truefoodnow.org/2010/09/30/federal-court-strikes-down-ohio-ban-on-rbgh-free-labels-on-dairy-products/

  • Doc Mudd

    Good management is essential to quality and safety.
    Good management can be a challenge for sane, rational thinking experienced operators.
    Good management is beyond the reach of an insane sumbitch — good luck is their best hope.
    Oh, look — isn’t that Elvis over there conspiring secretly with Louis Pasteur? Go back to the asylum and take a powder.

  • http://www.realrawmilkfacts.com Dog Doctor

    Mr. Anderson, at least we are agree on the importance of management in any food operation.
    As to your science, I will raise another pseudo science site http://www.notmilk.com/. These folks are as passionate as you but they are convinced that all milk is bad not just pasteurized but raw as well. They also have a long list of studies that could not be published in any journal.
    Again, I make the offer if you want a legitimate scientific discussion where we cite published referred literature, I would find that interesting.

  • http://www.themetabug.com Richard Lerner

    Bill–

    I would say that having 2 raw milks is all good and well, except for several things:

    1. Many of the raw milk proponents spend a lot of energy, voice, and ink telling us how the natural qualities of raw milk inhibit the growth of dangerous organisms.

    2.There are over 300 million people in the US, and over 6 billion people in the world. We are NEVER going to return to small-scale farming on a large basis. There will never be the resources to feed the world’s population with small-scale ag. Do I think this is good? Of course not, but I was recently deposed from my position as King of the World.

    3. Raw milk proponents continue to engage in a “blame the victim” mentality when someone becomes sick from raw milk, stating that an immune system weakened by the victim’s lifestyle (not having previously consumed raw milk) is at least partially to blame for the illness.

    4. Public Health deals with preventable illness. Just because the numbers are supposedly small, it doesn’t mean than in a resource-limited environment that public health should not use a cost-effective means (limiting the sale of raw milk) to prevent those illnesses.

  • JustTheFacts

    Just to take this one step further — for consumers who want a significant choice in the Dairy aisle, there are also two Pasteurized milks — CAFO-style and Organic — where consumers can opt for pasture-based, wholesome milk products with no antibiotics, no hormones, etc. — rather than the thin runny white stuff being pumped out of cows confined on concrete.

  • Doc Mudd

    The above advertisement for organic milk paid for by NOFA.
    Gratuitous slander of conventional milk also courtesy of NOFA policy, apparently.

  • Bill Anderson

    Hi Richard-
    I’m afraid your claim about small-scale-ag is totally off base, and will lead to Malthusian-style mass die-offs of humanity if it is taken to its logical conclusion.
    Humans currently produce enough food to feed 12 billion people in a world of 6 billion, yet we have 3 billion going hungry. The problem is not food production, the problem is distribution.
    Industrialized agriculuture is predicated upon cheap, limitless fossil fuels, and top-soil depeleting monocultures that are extremely ineffecient utilizers of vertical-space and time-acres. While industrial ag is an extremely effecient utilizer of human labor (requiring less than 2% of the population to be involved in food production) it is an extremely INEFFECIENT utilizer of acres of and solar energy.
    We could end the U.S. unemployment problem overnight if we put people to work on creating highly productive management-intensive perenial polycultures.
    Here is a simple illlustration of why industrialized monocultures are profoundly unproductive:
    https://picasaweb.google.com/107945599166872333846/Jul202011#5631462684938318546
    Now ask yourself: Which plants are photosynthesizing more? The annuals planted into bare-black dirt? Or the perennial fruit-and-nut-bearing trees and pasture-grasses that have been green and full-sized for months?
    Additionally, because perenial polycultures are also more labor-intensive, they ensure that a larger percentage of the population has control over the food supply, which will resolve the issue of food access cited above.
    Clearly, the issue at stake here is much larger than raw milk. The issue at stake in this debate is access to food. The authoritarians who wish to deny people the ability to organize their own local food system are Malthusians whose end-game is starvation and famine. This is the agenda of Monsanto and big-ag — complete and total control of our food system, and by extension of the population.
    “If you control the oil you control the country; if you control food, you control the population.” -Henry Kissinger.
    Coincidence? I think not.

  • Doc Mudd

    Malthusian end game?? Pretty cheesy diversion.
    Well, so much for “two raw milks”, eh?
    That lead balloon full’a organic fertilizer didn’t sail very far outside the raw milkie asylum before it imploded on itself!

  • Bill Anderson

    Most commercial “organic” milk undergoes ULTRA-high-temperature (UHT) pasteurization, as a means to extend its shelf-life, for national distribution from a few regional production centers.
    UHT processing literally steralizes the milk at temperatures of over 275F. Milk being over 80% water, and the boiling point of water at sea level being 212F, it is neccessary to put the milk under pressures well beyond normal atmospheric pressures in order to achieve this modern feat of milk-killing.
    UHT milk is so denatured by this extreme processing that it cannot form a curd for cheese making and cannot be turned into yogurt. It also has a distinct “burnt” flavor to it.
    Additionally, some commercial organic milk has illegal additives:
    http://livingmaxwell.com/horizon-organic-milk-dha-controversy
    And there have been a number of scandals involving supposed “organic” CAFOs:
    http://www.organicconsumers.org/articles/article_1183.cfm
    The only TRUE organic milk is farm-fresh RAW milk from pasture-grazed heritage-breed animals on a local family farm.

  • Mary McGonigle-Martin

    Bill Anderson,
    What are your thoughts on grass fed raw milk gently pasteurized at home with a double boiler? How damaged is this milk? We cook other foods and they are still considered healthy. Why would it be different for milk?

  • Bill Anderson

    Mary-
    My general philosophy is that biological solutions are always preferable to industrial solutions. I would agree that there are legitimate concerns about the increased food safety risks of fresh fluid raw milk, but I think the best way to address these is through culturing the milk rather than pasteurizing it. For example, this study shows how an African yogurt culture causes the death of E. Coli in milk:
    http://www2.uwstout.edu/content/lib/thesis/2004/2004mokuar.pdf
    (there are many more studies similair to this one)
    However, I can address the issue of home pasteurization.
    Firstly, legal vat pasteurization requires that the airspace of the vat be maintained at least 5 degrees above the legal pasteurization limit for the entire duration of pasteurization, using culinary-grade steam. (Believe it or not, I am trained and licensed to pasteurize milk by the state of Wisconsin). In case there are particles of the raw milk that splashed onto the upper side wall or cover of the vat, this is to ensure those are pasteurized as well so they do not re-contaminate the milk after pasteurization. It would be very difficult to do this properly on the home scale.
    Secondly, complicating the home pasteurization would be the ability to rapidly cool the milk after pasteurization. If contaminants (such as those mentioned above) make their way back into the milk while it is cooling, they will have free-reign over the milk since you have just destroyed all the natural flora of the milk. Since it is difficult to rapidly cool milk on the home scale, there is ample opportunity for these contaminants to grow. (You may have been better off just leaving the milk raw to begin with…)
    Thirdly, I think that the term “gently pasteurized” is problematic. I actually think that HTST pasteurization (161.5F for 15 seconds) is preferable to vat pasteurization (145F for 30 minutes) because of the extended hold time in the latter. While both are equivilent in their logarthmic destruction of pathogenic organisms, from a quality standpoint the proteins in the vat pasteurized milk are more damaged.
    Finally, speaking as a cheesemaker, pasteurization limits are fairly narrow. If you cook milk above 180F, you denature whey proteins which fundamentally alters the way that the milk thickens and coagulates. I can’t speak to the nutritional properties, but I can say that this milk will never make good cheese because the whey proteins are now unfolded and bound to the casein (curd proteins) preventing good seperation of curd and whey.
    The preferable option is to get good clean tested & certified raw milk from your local grass-grazed dairy farm. If you want an extra measure of food safety, turn it into kefir or yogurt and then age it for a few days in the fridge. The acidity and competition from beneficial lactic-acid producing bacteria will render the milk safe in the off-chance that any small quantities of pathogens are initially present.

  • Mary McGonigle-Martin

    Bill,
    If milk was pasteurized in a double boiler at 161.5 degrees for 15 seconds, placed in glass quart size canning jars, and then put in a metal tub filled with ice would this cool the milk rapidly enough? Also, would you consider this damaged milk in regards to the protein structure?
    Another question, when yogurt is made, what degree is it heated to and for how long?
    I’d love to see a study done on kefir and yogurt to see if it does 100% kill pathogens.

  • http://organicpastures.com mark mcafee

    I agree with Bill Anderson 100%. Culturing is a far better and more probiotic method to use than to pasteurize. The acidification, colonization, competition and other fermentation chemistry has been used for thousands of years. In fact history shows that most civilizations that drank rawmilk, drank as a fermented clabber…
    Why…no available refrigeration. We are spoiled in first world countries and like are cereals etc.
    I love my raw milk. I am also spoiled. I have 2000 gallons of it every day at the OPDC creamery 1400 feet from my house. We provide this non allergenic, easily digestible food to about 65,000 people every week in CA. 400 stores carry the product and more demand is measured every day.
    There are truly Two Raw Milks In America.
    The Milk Pool milk that has up to 750 coliforms and god knows how many pathogens and up to 100,000 SPC ( all of this as measured at the dairy milk tank and gets much higher at the creamery tank )
    The Other Raw Milk that is for Direct Human Consumption with less than 10 coliforms, less than 15,000 SPC per ml and zero pathogens allowed ever and this is in finished product form….now tell me there is only one kind of RAW MILK in America….
    Clearly, there are state laws that define these two raw milks. If you deny this, then I have a captive space alien that I would like Anderson Cooper to interview.
    Mark

  • http://www.thecompletepatient.com David Gumpert

    Bill, appreciate your efforts at transparency. Because raw dairy has become such an emotional political issue, it’s essential there be reliable data.
    There have been any number of studies showing that unpasteurized milk destined for the processing plants has a significant chance of containing pathogens. Here’s what I say in my book, The Raw Milk Revolution: “Raw milk of the first kind, which is really almost all milk produced in the U.S., has significant rates of pathogen contamination before pasteurization. A study published in a 2004 issue of the Journal of Dairy Science found that in milk samples taken from 861 bulk tanks in twenty-one states around the country, 2.6 percent contained salmonella and 6.5 percent tested positive for Listeria monocytogenes…the Journal of Dairy Science noted that the contamination ‘highlights the need for vigilance in maintaining hygienic conditions in milking and processing environments’…”
    I only hope the CDC will follow your lead. I doubt it will, though, since bunching all the data together provides it with ongoing political ammunition. The two deaths from unpasteurized milk since 1998 that the CDC always includes in its data to fearmonger about raw milk–these were almost certainly due to the same sort of raw milk as in Wisconsin–commercial milk sold to individuals who concocted home-made queso fresco cheese.

  • Bill Anderson

    Mary-
    Well, speaking from experience canning things other than milk (salsa, pickles, etc…) you never want to put a glass mason jar full of hot liquid into an ice bath. The temperature differential will cause the glass to shatter.
    If your only goal with home pasteurization is to render the milk safe to drink, I’d say you don’t need to worry about the narrow limits of industrial pasteurization to prevent excessive protein denaturation. The better option is just to start with clean raw milk to begin (SPC less than 15,000/mL and coliform less than 10/mL) with and then culture it with a measured dose of robust beneficial lactic-acid producing bacteria. Many industrial yogurt producers will cook the milk upto 180F to denature whey proteins, but this is a modern practice and not the traditional way that yogurt is made.
    Here is more interesting information about how lactic cultures kill E. Coli:
    http://www.cnn.com/CNN/Programs/anderson.cooper.360/blog/2006/03/teens-discovery-could-save-millions-of.html
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/2185003
    http://www.yourkefirsource.com/kefir-information/the-dangers-of-kefir-none

  • Doc Mudd

    Hmmm…not a bad little racket there at OPDC
    2000 gallons of raw milk a day @ $10 per gallon = $20,000 per day.
    That’s about $7.3 million a year.
    Heh, must be two kinds of ‘alternative’ farmers: those that fleece us for less than $5 million/yr and those that scalp us for more than $5 million/yr.
    If I had $7.3 million at stake, I suppose I could claim there are “two kinds of raw milk”, too. But I would have to be truthful about it — the two kinds of raw milk are:
    1) the kind of raw milk that has needlessly sickened innocent men, women & children, and
    2) the kind that’s going to

  • http://www.marlerclark.com/wmarler.htm Bill Marler

    David, I am all about transparency and accurate information. Splitting out raw milk recalls and/or outbreaks into raw milk produced to be pasteurized, but consumed raw in any event or contaminated post-pasteurization, helped me see that raw milk produced to be consumed raw is still a problem. I think part of the problem with raw milk produced to be consumed raw is the fact that many in your movement see it a a “magic” liquid – that as long as the cows are fed grass and on pasture, the milk can not contain pathogens that can sicken or kill. In many respects it gives the same false sense of security that dairymen must feel towards milk that is headed to be pasteurized.
    Also, assuming I have your attention for a moment. I think your anti-government – “pry that glass of milk from my cold dead hands” – “war, “fight” language (shades of Palin cross-hairs) is completely counterproductive if your real goal is some understanding and workable relationship with public health and people who care about public health. For me the personal attacks only steels my attitude to never back down and to not look for compromise. As the self-appointed Pope of Raw Milk you should be careful with the language you use. Some of your followers may take you seriously and act accordingly.

  • Benjamin

    Can anyone verify if the information below is factual? I would like to know. Because if so, it would point to an old history of “Two Raw Milks”. It is claimed that the founder of the Mayo Clinic wrote this:
    Distillery Dairies, Pasteurization, Certified Raw Milk and the Milk Cure
    “Raw milk cures many diseases.” [viii] – J.E. Crewe, MD, The Mayo Foundation, January, 1929
    The War of 1812 with England resulted in the permanent cutting off of the whiskey supply America procured from the British West Indies. As a result, the domestic liquor industry was born, and by 1814, grain distilleries began to spring up in the cities as well as the country. Distillery owners then began housing cows next to the distilleries and feeding hot slop, the waste product of whiskey making, directly to the animals as it poured off the stills. Thus was born the slop or swill milk system.
    Slop is of little value in fattening cattle; it is unnatural food for them, and makes them diseased and emaciated. But when slop was plentifully supplied, cows yielded an abundance of milk. Diseased cows were milked in an unsanitary manner. The individuals doing the milking were often dirty, sick or both. Milk pails and other equipment were usually dirty. Such milk sometimes led to disease. By the last decade of the nineteenth century, a growing number of influential people throughout the country believed that American cities had a milk problem.
    Pasteurization, begun around 1900, was a solution of sorts. The other was the certified raw milk movement, which insisted on clean, fresh milk from healthy, grassfed animals. Henry Coit, a medical doctor, was the founder of the first Medical Milk Commission and the certified milk movement. Physicians in cities throughout the country considered raw milk essential in the treatment of their patients; they worked together to certify dairies for the production of clean raw milk. This resulted in the availability of safe raw milk from regulated dairies. Initially, from around 1890 to 1910, the movements for certified raw milk and pasteurization coexisted and in many ways even complemented one another. From about 1910 until the 1940s, an uneasy truce existed. Certified raw milk was available for those who wanted it, while the influence of the pasteurization lobby saw to it that most states and municipalities adopted regulations that required all milk other than certified milk be pasteurized. The end of this truce (detailed below)has led to the subsequent outlawing of all retail sales of raw milk in most states and even of on-farm sales in many.
    Many people today find it surprising that support of raw milk among physicians was widespread in the first half of the twentieth century. The use of raw milk as a treatment of chronic disease has a rich and well-documented history. In 1929, J. E. Crewe, MD, one of the founders of the Mayo Foundation, the forerunner of the Mayo Clinic in Rochester, Minnesota, published an article entitled “Raw Milk Cures Many Diseases.” Here are excerpts from Dr. Crewe’s account of his experience with raw milk:
    “For fifteen years the writer has employed the certified milk treatment in various diseases and during the past ten he had a small sanitarium devoted principally to this treatment. The results obtained in various types of disease have been so uniformly excellent that one’s conception of disease and its alleviation is necessarily changed.” [ix]

  • Mary McGonigle-Martin

    Thanks for the information Bill. I wish all three had the actual journal article sited.

  • Doc Mudd

    Well, Ben, your “information” is “factual” only to the extent that your cited author existed. The rest we instantly recognize as standard issue off-topic propaganda from the raw milkie cult.
    J.E.Crewe, MD was a practitioner with a lively imagination working in a time when a popular fascination with quackery lingered from its heyday, some 25 years earlier. Crewe seemed a bit of a hold-over himself; champion of the ancedote, fabricator of novel theories, good general all-around showman – not one to become over-burdened by the emerging medical facts of his day.
    He was a vocal proponent of such popular notions as “letting outside air in”, hyping the ‘curative properties’ of aloe vera and, of course, the magical properties of raw milk.
    http://jama.ama-assn.org/content/107/14/1125.1.short
    http://fusion-world.com/media/articles/The_External_Use_Of_Aloes.pdf
    J.E. Crewe’s apparatus for letting outside air in didn’t really catch on. His rambling anecdotal pontifications upon raw milk persist today among scientifically illiterate ‘raw milkies’ eager to retail overpriced yuppie faux health food. Were it not for them, J. Crewe would perhaps be known today only for retailing overpriced yuppie clothing ;>)
    What has any of this to do with the ridiculous diversionary chimera of “two raw milks”?

  • http://www.realrawmilkfacts.com Dog Doctor

    Mary, I am amazed at your courage as you continue to discuss issues related to raw milk issues on various issues. Thank you for your efforts
    On home pastuerization, Michigan State Extension has a good article on home pasteurization (http://www.fcs.msue.msu.edu/ff/pdffiles/foodsafety2.pdf)
    “A good compromise for home pasteurization is to heat the milk to 165°F (74°C) in a double boiler and to hold it at this temperature for 15 seconds while stirring constantly. Then, cool it immediately while stirring to 145°F (63°C) by setting the top of the double boiler in cold water. Add ice to the cooling water to cool the milk further, stirring occasionally until the temperature of the milk falls below 40°F (4°C). Store the cooled milk in clean, covered containers and keep it at a temperature below 40°F (4°C) until used. This is the preferred method over the 30-minute/150°F (63°C) method because if at any time during the 30-minute period the temperature drops below 150°F (63°C), the milk must be reheated for 30 consecutive minutes.
    Another method is using jars for 30 minutes in a waterbath canner, again, provided care is taken to maintain the temperature at 150°F (63°C), and the milk is promptly cooled to 40°F (4°C) or less. All stirring devices, thermometers, or any other utensil that comes in contact with the milk must remain in the milk for the entire process—do not remove them at any time during the process—to prevent contamination.”
    Current requirements for pasteurization
    Temperature-Time Pasteurization Requirements for Fluid Milk
    Temperature Time
    • 150°F (66°C) 30 minutes (vat pasteurization)
    • 161°F (72°C) 15 seconds (high temperature, shorttime pasteurization)
    • 191°F (89°C) 1 second
    • 212°F (100°C) 0.01 second
    for Benjamin, I found the website your were references. It is very slick, unfortunately it is not completely accurate.
    you can find an article in the Journal of the American Medical Association
    http://jama.ama-assn.org/content/282/20/1909.full.pdf+html
    Milton J. Rosenau, MD
    Few public health issues are more public than food safety, which can involve health
    officials, farmers, manufacturers, and consumers.
    Milton J. Rosenau played a crucial role in the long, contentious campaign
    to make milk supplies pure and safe in the United States. As researcher, health
    official, and educator, Rosenau put medical science to work in the service of preventive
    medicine and public health.
    Rosenau was born in Philadelphia on January 1, 1869, and received his medical
    degree from the University of Pennsylvania in 1889. In 1890, he joined the
    United States Marine Hospital Service (MHS). He served as quarantine officer
    in San Francisco from 1895-1898 and in Cuba in 1898. During 1899-1909, he directed
    the MHS Hygienic Laboratory, transforming a one-person operation into
    a bustling institution with divisions in bacteriology, chemistry, pathology, pharmacology,
    zoology, and biology. Rosenau conducted his most important medical research during his 10 years at the Hygienic Laboratory, publishing many articles and books, including The Milk Question (1912) and Preventive Medicine and Hygiene (1913), which quickly became the most influential textbook on the subject.
    From early in his career, campaigns to reduce milkborne diseases occupied Rosenau’s attention. As he stated in his textbook, “Next to water purification, pasteurization is the most important single preventive measure in the field of sanitation.”
    A Public Health Service study in 1909 reported that 500 outbreaks of milk-borne diseases had occurred during 1880-1907. By 1900, increasing numbers of children drank pasteurized milk, but raw milk remained the norm partly because
    the high-temperature process then in use imparted a “cooked milk” taste. In 1906, Rosenau established that low temperature, slow pasteurization (140 F [60 C] for 20 minutes) killed pathogens without spoiling the taste, thus eliminating a key obstacle to public acceptance of pasteurized milk. However, securing a safe milk supply nationwide took another generation.
    By 1936, pasteurized, certified milk was the standard in most large cities, although over half of all milk in the United States was still consumed raw.
    In 1913, Rosenau became a Harvard University Medical School professor and a co-founder of the Harvard and Massachusetts Institute of Technology School for Health Officers. When Harvard established a school of public health in 1922, Rosenau directed its epidemiology program until 1935. In 1936, he moved to the University of North Carolina, Chapel Hill, to help establish its public health school (1940), where he served as dean until his death in 1946.
    Rosenau was a dedicated teacher and advocate for improved training in preventive medicine, but he is better remembered for his textbook than his pioneering epidemiologic work. This is as he expected: “We find monuments erected to heroes who have won wars, but we find none commemorating anyone’s preventing a war. The same is true with epidemics.”
    Other articles are
    Westhoff D.C. (1978). – Heating milk for microbial destruction: a historical outline and update. J. Food Protec., 41, 122-130.
    Pegram T.R. (1991). – Public health and progressive dairying in Illinois. Agric. Hist., 65, 36-50.
    North, C. E. 1925. Development of pasteurization. Pages 20–39 in Commercial pasteurization, Part I. United States Public Health
    Service Bulletin No. 147, Washington, DC.
    North, C. E., and W. H. Park. 1927. Standards for milk pasteurization. Am. J. Hygiene 7:147–173.

  • Mary McGonigle-Martin

    Dog Doc,
    I tried the link but it doesn’t work. I think this was the link we originally had on the RRMF website. However, this same information can be found on the internet when I typed in Michigan State Extension pasteurization.
    What are your thoughts on teaching people how to home pasteurize milk if they would like to buy raw milk from their local farmer? Do you think people could consistently do this process without cross contaminating the milk? Is it really any different from cooking other foods that has a high pathogen risk like raw beef or poultry?
    We are moving to an era where people want a closer connection to their farmer. Unfortunately, with all of the information that is promoted about processed sick CAFO milk (UHT, homogenized, growth hormone, antibiotics, GMO fed) I think people get confused as to the role that pasteurization has played in the safety of milk. WAPF sends the message that pasteurized milk is processed milk. I would disagree. I think heating the milk to 165 degrees for 15 seconds isn’t going to kill the milk and make it this horrible thing to drink. We cook other foods and they are still considered healthy to eat.
    In other words, if a person wants to buy raw milk from their local farmer or through a cow share program because they want to consume “healthier milk”, gently pasteurizing it at home is a great option to ensure the safety of the milk.

  • Bill Anderson

    Mary-
    It looks like the story on the CNN website also appear on a Marler-Clark blog:
    http://www.ecoliblog.com/e-coli-watch/student-discovers-protein-in-yoghurt-that-fights-e-coli/

  • Mary McGonigle-Martin

    Don’t get me wrong Bill. If someone was going to ask me to choose between consuming raw milk or yogurt or kefir made from raw milk, I would choose the later. Having said that, I want to see hard data showing that raw yogurt and kefir have the capacity to 100% kill all pathogens dead equal to pasteurization. The article you site states it has the potential to fight E.coli. That is different from making a statement that it kills all pathogens that could be present in raw yogurt and kefir. And by kills, I don’t mean reduces. I mean kills, eliminates, wipes-out with zero pathogens remaining.

  • Doc Mudd

    Well, with all this interest in DIY home pasteurization, it seems we’re all agreed unpasteurized milk is needlessly risky in a modern developed country with and abundance of safe, wholesome, affordable pasteurized milk and dairy products at our fingertips.
    Now, if only we could end the moronically uninformed bashing of honest, hard-working commercial dairymen. These guys & gals (even the CAFO family farms) have no more intention or legacy of injuring us than righteous ‘alternative farmers’.
    Maybe less, now — if you’ve followed news of the Oslo bombing, the suspect turns out to be a disgruntled organic farmer who promoted extreme political views (eewwww, that is not so very distinctive or unusual, is it?).
    “The suspect, tall and blond, owned an organic farming company called Breivik Geofarm, which a supply firm said he had used to buy fertiliser — possibly to make the Oslo bomb.”
    “These are goods that were delivered on May 4,” Oddny Estenstad, a spokeswoman at farm supply chain Felleskjoepet Agri, told Reuters. “It was 6 tonnes of fertiliser, which is a small, normal order for a standard agricultural producer.”
    http://www.jpost.com/International/Article.aspx?id=230637
    http://www.swedishwire.com/nordic/10749-norway-attacks-draws-comparison-to-oklahoma-bomber-
    http://www.myfoxdc.com/dpps/news/man-suspected-of-norway-massacres-is-affluent-educated-extremist-dpgonc-20110723-bb_14261569
    German organic farmer and 50+ dead. Norwegian organic farmer and 90+ dead. Just sayin’

  • http://www.realrawmilkfacts.copm Dog Doctor

    Mary the link is
    Http://www.fcs.msue.msu.edu/ff/pdffiles/foodsafety2.pdf

  • Bill Anderson

    Hi Mary,
    Even PMO standards require certain bacterial limits in the raw milk in order to assure food safety. If CAFO raw milk with a Staph Aureus count of 5 million per mL is pasteurized using PMO time/temperature guidelines, it will still make you sick because Staph entero-toxin is heat-stable and can survive pasteurization.
    To expect that there is a process that can be 100% effective in ensuring food safety is unrealistic. Pasteurized milk has caused innumerable outbreaks and even 2 recent deaths. Clearly it is not the pancea you make it out to be.
    The whole point of using HACCP-like plans (such as Mark’s RAMP) is to analzye risk factors, and work to ensure they are effectively managed and minimized.
    That being said, I am confident that raw milk that meets bacterial standards for human-grade raw milk (SPC under 15,000 and Coliform under 10/mL) and is cultured to under pH 4.5 using a measured does of lactic-acid producing bacteria, is equivilent to pasteurization in its pathogen destroying capabilities. The question which not yet been solved is which strains of which lactic bacteria need to be used to accomplish this.

  • comeback

    Doc Mudd-slinger:

    Why is it a “Racket” to sell something at a fair price to folks who are willing to pay extra money for extra quality? Nobody is forcing us all to buy raw, organic, high quality, healthy milk. But plenty of powerful intere$ts are trying to force us to buy pasteurized, diseased milk while trying to demonize and outlaw living, raw milk. Who is being decietful? Who is greedy? Who is pushing in a warlike fasion? Is it the big agricorporations and those who allow them (and help them) to continue thier fraudulent, greedy practices, while poisoning the public. Is it the conscientious small organic farmer providing raw, healthy milk to the knowledgeble consumer? Is it the regulatory folks who are supposed to be protecting the public? Is it the knowledgeble and healthful consumer demanding a safe, traditional, raw, living food/drink?

    I don’t know or have any connection to the other commenters. I have no financial interest at stake (I don’t produce any dairy products). It’s just that I (and a LARGE group of area locals here) have to drink black market raw milk right now (because my State is confused about the truth- thank $big agra dollar$) and will fight for the RIGHT to legally access what I believe is the healthiest RAW MILK choice for my family without having to be made to feel like a criminal. And yes, I am slightly upset that our rights are being trampled by big dollar intere$ts, aren’t you? There are millions of us. *Industry insiders- please follow your conscience, do the right thing and stand with those trying to help. Look around, there is a food revolution happening.

  • Bill Anderson

    The RACKET at work is the CAFO/PMO commodity milk club, supported by massive $$$$$ from corporate monopolists like Dean Foods and Dairy Farmers of America, bolstered by such groups as the NMPF and the IDFA.
    Doc-Muddslinger is really just a shill for these benefactors of cheap-oil and top-soil destruction agribusiness.
    Ironic, isn’t it? Did you know that many of the basic sanitary milk handling protocals which formed the basis for the PMO were first developed by Dr. Coit and his Medical Milk Commissions — the advocates for CERTIFIED raw milk in the early 20th century.
    Its too bad that mudslinger’s ignorant ilk continue to populate this blog. I don’t understand why he hasn’t been banned yet?

  • Doc Mudd

    See, this is just the sort of semi-coherent paranoid “fight” rant that’s beginning to frighten me — just too much coincidental similarity with the emerging personality of the Oslo mass murderer (a disgruntled organic farmer with extreme fanatic politcal views, with occupational access to destructive bomb-making capability, and with obviously way too much time on his hands for angry brooding and scheming).
    As I recall, Terry Nichols was also a chronically disgruntled part-time farmer with access to explosive raw materials and whose extreme politics dealt a senseless and tragic blow to Oklahoma City.
    Sure, these eccentric rants are all ‘just bluster and bold talk’ and they are probably harmless enough, but for what constructive purpose?
    Shades of “Palin’s crosshairs”, to be sure.

  • Mary McGonigle-Martin

    Yes. Bill. I know that you are biased against pasteurization, but most outbreaks involve either faulty pasteurization or contamination after it has been pasteurized. As for Staph Aureus, how many document outbreaks have been caused by this bacterium?
    The point I am trying to make is that people can make the choice to purchase raw milk from a local farmer and pasteurize it at home themselves. I believe there are many people out there that would like to support their local farmer, as well as being able to purchase milk that has not been produced using growth hormones, GMO feed, antibiotics and homogenization and at the same time don’t want to take the risk of consuming milk that has not been pasteurized.
    Home pasteurization is an option people can choose.

  • Bill Anderson

    Oh please, Doc. Look whose paranoid now. I’m a socialist who has never touched a gun in my life. I’ve probably spent more time organizing anti-war protests than anything. My motto is “Make Cheese, Not War.”

  • Bill Anderson

    If people want to pasteurize at home, that is their choice. I just want to make sure that consumers have a choice to purchase clean, tested, CERTIFIED raw milk, and that our regulatory system is based on science and not corporate interests.
    My main point is that lactic-acid fermentation will achieve the same effect of destroying pathogens as pasteurization will achieve, only without destroying the bio-diversity or denaturing the nutrients and ezymes.
    As a cheese maker, I know that raw milk cheese has more flavor than pasteurized. Raw milk cheese (with the notable exception of unacidified high-moisture high-salt varieties, i.e. queso blanco) also has an intrinsic immunity to listeria monocytogenes that pasteurized milk cheeses lacks. For this reason, it is actually safer to make cheese with CERTIFIED raw milk than it is to make it with pasteurized milk.

  • Bill Anderson

    Also, Mary, I should add that pasteurization is NOT steralization. The goal of pasteurization is a 5-log reduction in microbial population, to reduce pathogens to below infectious thresholds.
    Once again… if the raw milk going into pasteurization is loaded with a high population of pathogens, you will get crap out of the other side that could make you sick.

  • http://www.realrawmilkfacts.com Dog Doctor

    Mr. Anderson, there are plenty of people on the raw milk blogs that talk about the “war”, resisting, “fighting back”, etc. This material has been used in court to justify the US Marshall that accompanying public health officials at times. Remember it was a sausage maker who shot unarmed USDA inspectors who were trying to protect the public health.
    Also Mr. Anderson, staph when involved in outbreaks is usually in products that are thermally abused. The classic is the cream pie that is not refrigerated all day with a resulting staph intoxication. Please really read some of the outbreak investigation manuals on state public health sites which I have listed before. The most important factors in food safety are good sanitation, hygiene, prevention of cross contamination, and good management, Minkpuppy has made this point as well. After being in public health for more than 24 years, most outbreaks are due to human stupidity, ignorance, malice and greed. With most of the outbreaks due to stupidity, “Gee, I was suppose to wash my hands after going to the bathroom” which resulted in 800 people getting Shigella. “Was I suppose to clean the cutting board after cutting up the meat before I cut up the vegetables” which resulted in E. coli outbreak. “You mean it is dangerous to pick up apples from the ground and use them for cider” which is another E. coli outbreak from an organic orchard. I could keep going but hopefully this made the point mistakes are going to happen and outbreaks will occur, 80% due to stupidity, 18% due to ignorance and selective ignorance, 1% malice, and 1% greed. Selective ignorance being people who have been told the science behind food safety and chose to ignore it.
    As to accusing public health in being linked to any conspiracy is crazy, we don’t have to be for job security human stupidity, ignorance, greed, and malice insures that for forever.
    Just as police officers are frustrated when investigating accident scene someone was killed by not wearing a seat belt or having a child safety seat or ignoring speed limits, public health officials are frustrated as well when investigating food production facilities and finding obverse issues. And hearing for the operated, oh I didn’t know that. I think I have heard one time someone actually apologize for the mistake and NO ONE has offered to help the victims of their stupidity. So Mr. Anderson that is what fuels our passion to protect the health of the American public who assume the food they are getting will not give them a parasitic, viral, or bacterial related diseases. We have seen it too many times.
    As to “comeback”, you are complaining about the wrong people FDA enforces laws they don’t make them. Your elected officials’ make the laws, as Minkpuppy has pointed out public health just enforces them. So instead of complaining to the wrong people find out how to petition your elected officials to change them. But due your research first, just like changing the seatbelts laws, let’s hope you and your love ones are not in a food safety accident that pasteurization could have prevented like seat belts can prevent injuries in a car accident. It is not playing Russian roulette but how many thousands of miles occur between accidents. Just like in an auto accident it is too late to put the seat belt on after the accident.

  • Mary McGonigle-Martin

    Bill,
    I’m talking about people having the opportunity to home pasteurize their raw milk that is purchased from small farmers, cowshare programs or large dairies like OPDC. The very milk you would want people to buy. It is just an option for people who don’t want to take the risk of drinking raw milk, but want “healthy” milk. I’m not talking about sterilizing the milk, just pasteurizing it enough to kill the bad guys in case the farmer had a bad day and shit got in the milk. Why take that risk if you don’t have to?
    As for raw cheese, I believe E.coli 0157:H7 made people ill last year. Remember the Costco outbreak. Shiga toxin E.coli is a potent bacteria.
    As for this, “My main point is that lactic-acid fermentation will achieve the same effect of destroying pathogens as pasteurization will achieve, only without destroying the bio-diversity or denaturing the nutrients and ezymes.” I get that, but want to see had data proving that.

  • Mary McGonigle-Martin

    Bill, I apologize. You did post this link. http://www2.uwstout.edu/content/lib/thesis/2004/2004mokuar.pdf I’m reading through it. It looks promising, but to be considered valid, it would have to be reproduced in another study and the same results would have to be found.

  • Bill Anderson

    Your analogy is weak, DD. 40,000 Americans die in auto accidents each year. Not a single person has died from drinking raw milk in over 30 years. Even if 1% of the population drinks raw milk (the real number is likely around 3%), and we assume that 100% drive cars on a regular basis, that would mean for raw milk to be as dangerous as cars, it would have to cause around 400 deaths each year.
    Again… not a single death from drinking raw milk in over 30 years.
    HELLO, wake up please Doc! This debate isn’t about food safety. We have the tools to monitor and reasonably assure the safety of raw milk. This debate is about corporate domination of our food choices.
    We tried changing the laws in Wisconsin. Yet despite having overwhelming popular support for our cause, it was shot down by big-money dairy lobbyists and lawyers. As for the regulators and public health people, they may not pass the laws, but they often have a hand in writing them, and they certainly have a hand in how they are interpretted and enforced.
    Once again, follow the $$$$$$$$$

  • Bill Anderson

    Mary,
    No offense to Mark and OPDC (love them!) but I do think that raw milk cheese is a preferable vehicle for the delivery of the delicious nutrients in raw milk. Of course, I could be biased… I am a cheese maker, after all.
    The combination of lactic-acid fermentation, salt, reduced moisture content, and age, all work to eliminate pathogens. Plus with cheese, because of the age, you have a chance to test everything for pathogens before it is sent to market (where with fluid drinking milk, because of its short shelf-life, any test you perform is looking at something already heading to market).
    The E. Coli outbreaks that happened last year from raw milk cheese, happened because the producers were not following good practices and testing their cheese like they should have been. By utilizing HACCP types of plans and testing protocals, it is entirely possible to produce raw milk cheese with equivilent or higher safety than pasteurized milk cheese.
    That being said, I choose to drink raw milk. I like the flavor better, and living in Wisconsin there is an abundance of small local dairy farms to choose from. It also makes better cheese any day, hands down. The finest artisan cheeses in the world are made with raw milk.

  • Mary McGonigle-Martin

    Bill,
    I just don’t understand the logic of stating that no one has died from drinking raw milk in the last 30 years. It makes me angry when Mark says this and just as angry when you say it. What exactly is your point? Are you saying it is O.K. for raw milk to make people ill because they didn’t die? Is it O.K. that Mari Tardiff still has to use a walker and that Lauren Herzog and Kalee Prue have permanent kidney damage and will probably require kidney dialysis sometime in their lives? What, they didn’t die so contaminated raw milk is not a safety issue?
    This information is posted on STOP about my son’s illness.
    Labor Day Weekend of 2006 changed our lives forever. Little did we know the raw milk our son consumed was contaminated with E. coli O157:H7. While we innocently swam in our backyard swimming pool and enjoyed the holiday, this killer bacterium slowly invaded Chris’ intestinal track. The first signs of trouble: a headache, followed by fever and lethargy. Next, a day filled with endless episodes of diarrhea, culminating that evening with blood in his stool. This signaled something was terribly wrong. From there, relentless, painful diarrhea and vomiting began, marking the beginning of our two month odyssey to Hell.
    Nothing can prepare a parent for this medical announcement: “Your child has Hemolytic Uremic Syndrome”. Or this one: “Your child will get worse before he gets better”. Our son fought a war. It was against something invisible. You can’t see or smell E. coli O157:H7 or the die off (called Shiga toxins) which are poisonous to the human body. The damage done by this bacterium is incomprehensible.
    Christopher entered the emergency room during the evening of September 7th and was admitted to the hospital the following morning. He was diagnosed with Hemolytic Uremic Syndrome on September 11, 2006. He endured a ventilator, kidney dialysis, chest drainage tubes, central lines, PICC lines, blood transfusions, plasma transfusions platelet transfusions, intravenous nutrition, narcotics, antibiotics, and surgeries. He recovered from renal failure, congestive heart failure, a collapsed lung, acute pancreatitis, high blood pressure and seizures. While in critical condition, he was in the care of a nephrologist, cardiologist, neurologist, gastroenterologist and multiple attending pediatric ICU physicians. Christopher was released from the hospital on November 2, 2006.
    Our family is blessed. Chris won his war against E. coli O157:H7 and HUS. He survived.
    Our son, Christopher Chase, is our hero. He taught us so much about the strength of the human spirit and is living proof that miracles do happen.
    Bill, please help me understand what your point is, because I am clueless.

  • http://www.realrawmilkfacts.com Dog Doctor

    Yes, Mr. Anderson it is all about food safety. See the outbreaks listed at the following sites
    I have included both domestic and foreign since you will say domestic information is influenced by big whatever and the claims raw milk is safely consumed all over the planet. It is not dude. In developing countries, where there are no CAFO or big Ag, there are all the common diseases we saw at the turn of the last century before pasteurization. In Eastern Europe you see people hutched over because of brucella and TB.
    http://www.realrawmilkfacts.com/outbreak-tables/
    Or
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1915294/pdf/pubhealthreporig00080-0069.pdf
    Or
    http://jid.oxfordjournals.org/content/176/3/815.full.pdf
    Or
    http://www.cdc.gov/ncidod/dbmd/diseaseinfo/foodborneinfections_g.htm
    Or
    http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1745-4565.2004.tb00373.x/abstract
    “No significant difference was found between the count of hygiene-indicators and the presence of Listeria spp. as well in raw milk as in raw milk butter. The bacteriological quality of on-farm made raw milk butter suggest that suitable hygienic conditions are not always provided”
    Or
    http://igitur-archive.library.uu.nl/dissertations/2006-1120-200053/c8.pdf
    Dar es Salaam region. The mean TBC was 8.2 X 106 cfu ml-1 ± 1.9 X 106
    cfu ml-1, and major bacterial isolates from the milk samples were
    Escherichia coli (6.3%), Bacillus cereus (6.3%), Staphylococcus aureus
    (6.3%) and Streptococcus agalactiae (6.3%), Enterobacter aerogenes
    (5.6%) and Enterococcus faecalis (4.7%).
    or
    http://www.scielo.br/scielo.php?pid=S0102-09352007000200035&script=sci_arttext&tlng=pt
    I could go on all day with more case reports, so yes it is about food safety. Raw milk is not a magic self sterilizing food.
    As to the comparison with seat belts, more people drive and ride in cars and spend more time in them than drink milk so there is a higher exposure risk in automobiles. So the relationship is valid one. It is also about consequence, in a severe car crash or E. coli O157:H7 both outcomes are severe and can result in death or permanent injury so I stand by the analogy.
    As you do in so many of your replies you make my point about food safety and human stupidity
    “The E. Coli outbreaks that happened last year from raw milk cheese, happened because the producers were not following good practices and testing their cheese like they should have been.”
    As to enforcing the laws, when you are pulled over for speeding have you asked the officer to change the ways he or she interrupts the law? As to the money issue and public health. Minkpuppy and I have made it abundantly clear about the ethical standards public health and regulatory officials have to.
    As to the laws, if can’t get them changed could be that only 5% of population believe in the “magic” of raw milk? While the majority don’t? 5% of US population would be about 15 million out of 330 million, in case you want to mention hundreds coming to any events etc.

  • Doc Mudd

    Whenever I follow the money trail (Bill A.’s recommendation) it leads from these impassioned raw milk snakeoil sales pitches right back to greedy ‘alternative farmers’ like Mark, who pockets a cool $7.3 million (or more) each year from this scam and to loopy organizations like WAPF, a 501(c)(3) ‘non-profit charity’ whose operatives make very fine livings off donations from gullible folks of all sorts.
    C’mon…$7.3 million bucks ridin’ on this con — Mark and his co-conspirators will stop at nothing to keep this raw milk scam cranking. Hell, they’re unemployable otherwise — BS is their only stock in trade.
    So, yeah, “follow the money” — that’s always pretty good advice, even coming from a bunko artist.

  • comeback

    Watch this and tell me who is orchestrating a war. I dare you.
    This video is simply stunning. This is America, I can’t believe this is happening here! Guns drawn, 5 governmental agencies, people terrorized! And it happenned again yesterday. I hope you please watch this and then offer comments on how you feel.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ioN0ehlyyXI&feature=youtu.be
    http://reason.tv/video/show/rawesome-foods-raided-again

  • Morgan

    Is Doc Mudd for real or just likes to “mudd-y” the water? He obviously is the result of being given soy formula as a baby and has been ticked ever since. It seems J.E. Crewe, one of the founders of The Mayo Foundation later to become the Mayo Clinic, and several others actually treated their patients with clean raw milk, of course that was last century. Then there’s the book, “The Milk Cure,” whereby 18000 people went that route under the guidance of Dr. Charles Sanford Porter, M.D. with great success. The problem with milk can be, some folks are milk intolerant, like American Indians, Asians for the most part, and a few others, it’s the casein thing, and casomorphin that can cause those with casein sensitivity some health issues largely with their digestion but related to gluteomorphin issues. The kefir and yogurt thing is interesting and authentic data from real science and not from hired stooges on stipends from The American Dairy Association would be highly encouraging and one way or the other, that is, will those two fermentation processes indeed overpower harmful bacteria? The yogurt sold in supermarkets is surely food processors way of demonstrating their skills at satire or farce. That stuff is loaded with chemicals, nil probiotics, sugar for the most part, and the culture is suspect at best. Regarding real raw milk, “Dr. Mudd” might attempt to debate Sally Fallon Morel or Dr. Ron Scmid on the subject, but he likes the attention he gets for being outrageous and playing devil’s advocate. We all like attention and to express ourselves, but the real problem, in my humble opinion is this: Wherever Western lifestyle went, doctors and dentist followed rather like vultures do hovering over the dead and dying. What is happening is, people are losing sense and intelligence with I.Q. scores faltering and with purportedly 80,000,000 people mentally ill and with 240,000,000 Americans either overweight or obese, all this talk about raw milk versus pasteurized milk seems a bit thrusting a windmills, only we aren’t insane Spaniards, we actually claim to be rational, or maybe not be in some cases. Pasteurized milk is often found to contain painkillers, antibiotics and growth hormones, not the sort of stuff one can have confidence drinking. If the latter is untrue, then 810 websites must be wrong, but somehow, owing to the fact that many are not on any raw milk payroll, are independent organizations, etc., maybe, just maybe, there are some real problems with the pasteurized milk sources. Take those who simply like to bad mouth anything that deviates from the status quo of the dairy industry and one will find someone who isn’t looking for the truth, they’re just looking to argue. That’s not productive, is annoying and leads nowhere. Both sides want to believe or believes they are right but it comes down to taking a trip around the country and looking at industrial dairies and asking, “Would I drink that crap or give it to my children?” Let some of that stuff be pasteurized and sit out for a couple days and the odor is staggering, do that with clean raw milk and you start salivating. Traveling down I-5, one occasionally is shocked by some cows, milk cows, on hills of manure by bins of grain and the odor is shocking even from afar, but the flies love it. My mother died with 31 teeth at 95 years old and the only reason she died so young is she got hit in a crosswalk by a Lincoln Continental on her way to Whole Foods across the street from her condo. She grew up on raw goats’ milk and had black hair when she died with only a few strands of gray, that is not a tall tale, that’s a fact and people were always amazed. The sun, raw milk, and one whose favorite song was, Que Sera Sera (Whatever Shall Be, Shall Be), she was quite beautiful and she charmed men because she listened to them and remembered every word. That’s what drinking raw milk may have helped accomplish.